This is going to make me some enemies, but I'm too cranky to care.

[kellinator]

Dear Everyone Who's Whining About What a Terrible Man St. Patrick Was and How Pagans Are So Oppressed,

I was looking forward to an evening of St. Patrick's Day fun with friends, so forgive me for being a little bit cranky about all the vitriol being launched on here today.

Are we Christians supposed to spend the day apologizing for St. Patrick converting Ireland fifteen hundred years ago? I'm no expert in Druidic practices, but how do we really know that the Druids were happy-love-everybody people and St. Patrick was a jerk determined to make sure no one was having a good time? It's not as simple as pagans good/Patrick bad (nor, I suppose, as simple as Patrick good/pagans bad). Imagine you're the person who got picked for the human sacrifice and see if you still think so.

Christianity is not all about hate and oppression, no matter what Jerry Falwell tells you. It's got some good ideas about kindness to one's fellow man. Many terrible sins have been committed in the name of Christ, but much good has been done too.

A lot of people out there seem to demand toleration for everyone but Christians. I almost didn't make this post because I knew it would piss people off, but that would be denying what I feel and what I believe. If it's okay for you to express your faith, then it's okay for me to express mine. I may be a lousy excuse for a Christian, but I still am one. If you want religious toleration, I think that's terrific, but you ought to have some for the Christians too. We progressive Christians have got enough to worry about with retaking our faith from the Pharisees currently in charge without having to constantly apologize for being Christian.

And I'm fucking terrified of snakes, so St. Patrick, you're okay in my book.

Comments

[blistermoth.livejournal.com]

hear! hear!

[sleepinbeauty.livejournal.com]

Cheers! Let's get drunk now.

Although in reality, I think you've made a good post with good points. Extremes are bad. Especially religious extremes, whether full-on hatred or full-on insane love with the happy dance.

[vill.livejournal.com]

I was listening to something on NPR the other day about how the religous right and the Republican party are all in each other's pants, thus forming a huge and insurpassable voting block, but the religious left is barely on speaking terms with the Democratic party. It made me think of you.

[harleen.livejournal.com]

everyone has the right to their beliefs when it comes to religion. I am Buddhist/Pagan myself, but I would never knock what another person believes. ignore the naysayers, and enjoy the day!

[gaeirin.livejournal.com]

Actually, I quite enjoyed that. As a Christo-pagan, I get really tired of having to tell off unaccepting pagans who will accept damn near anything else. There comes a time when you just have to learn to deal with the world around you, and you gotta like it or lump it. I think I'm gonna like it.

[harleen.livejournal.com]

*nods* I agree with you.

I am Buddhist/Pagan, so I know exactly what you mean. there are some Pagans out there who are unaccepting of what I believe....I too am sick of having to deal with that.

Kellinator makes a great point, that I applaud...people really do need to just deal with the reality of it all.

[blackacre.livejournal.com]

Fuck religion.

Drink another beer.

Now its all good.

[hooper-x.livejournal.com]

People complain about that shit?

God, pagans are a bunch of whiny douchebags.

-HX, notes that for the most part, christians, muslims, and jews are ALSO whiny douchebags... BOO HOO THAT HURTS MY HEART IN A BAD WAY. Suck it up, asshole. Everybody gets shit on eventually. Except heterosexual white males. We rule the world with an iron fist. (Until we get shit on by the Chinese, which will happen, eventually.)

[piratejenny.livejournal.com]

Hey, not all of us! :-p

I was going to post something very similar in my lj last night, but I was out of vitriol by the time I got home. (Long commutes can actually work in one's favor.) I figure I'm allowed to bitch about pagans being whiny, because I am one. I'm also not Irish, but I don't let that impair my enjoyment of the day. Okay, I can make a reallyreally tenuous Viking connection with some Irish myths (Swedish Vikings, not Norse, or it wouldn't be so tenuous), but I don't think that quite works. :-)

And yeah, just wait till the Chinese collect the debt we owe them...

[nyxalinth.livejournal.com]

I suppose that the lumping everyone together goes both ways, eh? We Pagans do our share, for sure. Speaking for myself, I am not one of the sheeple. There's a lot of Pagans and Wiccans out there who bristle everytime a fluff bunny cries 'Christians are sooo mean and closedminded blah blah blahdiblah!'

All three of my roomates our christians, and seeing as I have yet to be burned at the stake (yes, they know what I am) I can difnately say that I, at least, know for sure that not everyone is the same.

I have no problems with St. Patrick. My beef is with Columbus Day (let's celebrate the beginning of the end for North and central American indigenous cultures! Not) because I am 1/6 Native American.

[harleen.livejournal.com]

I also do not like Columbus Day...not only for the reason you stated, but also because it has been proven historically that Columbus did *not* "discover America". I think it is still celebrated out of tradition...even though so-called "VJ Day" is no longer celebrated, which is a good thing!

[ariedana.livejournal.com]

St. Patrick's Day is a day to celebrate your roots, not your religion. After all, Patrick is largely a mythological character. And it's a shame when we let our anger about what happened to our ancestors ruin a perfectly good opportunity to get sloshed.

As far as Christian-bashing goes...when did any group of people become perfect enough to judge the actions of another? We're all people, and we're all power-hungry, and we're all going to try to screw each other over if we get the chance. That sounds really cynical, but look at world history. So no one should say that things are so much worse now than they would've been otherwise, because it's all in degrees.

[juanfandango.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I don't see anyone celebrating their roots. It's a day that has been hijacked by big business to con people into the idea that they should go out together and "make merry" and get drunk on crap faux-Irish beer.

If I went up to any one of you and said, "You ARE going to go out on August 14th, because it's the special day of Azimuth of Balrog of the Cistern cult, and you're going to drink some beer you never normally drink." you'd tell me where to shove it. But big business, mass media, and the ovine mind of the masses, has conned you all into it under the semblence of the arbitrarily chosen day of a saint of a religion that most people don't practice.

R, partypooper. :-)

AMEN SISTER!

[grniiis.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that everything is like that, the conservative or Christian views get pushed aside while the on in left field ideas are embraced and protected. People forget that when our founders made the constitution, they wanted the freedom to express their religious beliefs, and to be FREE to say "One nation under God"...I'm going off on a tangent, but I agree with what you were saying.

Re: AMEN SISTER!

[blondeheroine.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that everything is like that, the conservative or Christian views get pushed aside while the on in left field ideas are embraced and protected.

Never been Pagan in the Southern US, have you? :p

[galateadia.livejournal.com]

for my two cents,
i wasn't bashing christians, after all i used to be one.
i like the holiday, i just don't like having to celebrate an honestly hateful man (saint, whatever). wether he had his religion to back him up in his hate or not.
i don't apply my dislike of him to all christian religions, i don't even apply it to catholicism.
yes, most pagans are whiny, but so are a hell of a lot of christians. ;)


i don't have to mention that snakes are symbolic do i?

[kellinator.livejournal.com]

But how do we know that St. Patrick was "an honestly hateful man"?

It seems like a lot of people think that Christians try to convert others to keep them from having fun, but for many of us, it's about wanting to share a good thing with others. Why is that hateful?

[twisteddaydream.livejournal.com]

Christianity is not all about hate and oppression, no matter what Jerry Falwell tells you. It's got some good ideas about kindness to one's fellow man. Many terrible sins have been committed in the name of Christ, but much good has been done too.

Exactly. The religious right is not all that Christianity is about. One of my pet peeves are groups who sit back and say, "Oh but Christians oppress everyone," when there are groups in their own area of religion that do the same thing. It has more to do with people than relgion anyway. And we all know how people can be, don't we?

Christianity has a wonderfully rich history that has both good and bad elements. Oh. Wait a minute. What group doesn't have that?! The argument that people have been killing the name of God for 2000 years is true, of course. But most any soldier, invader, raider, butcher, baker, and candlestickmaker walks into their field of battle with some form of deity on their tongue. So doesn't that mean they are all killing in the name of god?

You absolutely should not have to apologize for being Christian, Kelly. It's ridiculous. Now, the fuckheads who are bastardizing the religion and continuing these issues, well, maybe they have something to apologize for, but you know what? There's this little thing in this country called freedom of religion. And while it is easier to be some religions as opposed to others, it's a lot better than it was say during the Reformation, when people were being burned as heretics although they were all supposedly worshipping the same god. Last time I checked, Jane down the street wasn't being put on a stake and burned because she was a nice fluffbunny pagan, and Joe, just around the block, wasn't being dragged off to the city square because he prays to Allah. Yes, we have religious persecution in this country, but it comes from all sides, not just from Christians, and it sure is a lot better than even America's past history has been.

And this came out a lot longer and more annoyed than I meant.

[azurelunatic]

Hooray for beer, eh?

I prefer my St. Patrick's day with a little forked-tongue-in-cheek humor.

Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke (or a holiday)

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

I live in New Orleans. We've got a lot of Irish people, a lot of Catholics, and 100% of the population loves a good excuse to party. No matter how Christian-mystic/Pagan-Wiccan/Ecclectic-Kabbalistic I am, I'm wearing my green stockings and I will be raising a glass tonight.

I don't know anything about St. Patrick. I've heard he was mean, I've heard he converted Ireland, I know there weren't any real snakes. (I like snakes. To me, they're like fluffy bunnies. Really. I mean, they used to have a day to go out and kill all the rabbits you could get your hands on, but that's another myth for another day.)

If people are giving you shit, just do what we do down here in the Big Easy. Shrug and say, "Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink!"

[xforge.livejournal.com]

Druids were NOT "happy-love-everybody people." They weren't fluffy Wiccans either. They were pagan tribespeople with fairly mundane traditions but these did not exclude blood rites or sacrifices.

But there weren't any snakes in Ireland in the first place, and you were probably being facetious so never mind.

You wanna hear what I hate about St. Patrick's Day? It's not a damn thing more than an excuse for bars and pubs that normally let people come and go as they please to suddenly decide to charge a cover, for the privilege of getting inside the same room that was free yesterday, and pay a ludicrous price for Michelob with green dye in it. And listen to bad canned Celtic music IF THEY'RE LUCKY. If they're not lucky, they get a live band of local dudes who couldn't find the word "entertainment" in a dictionary.

And you get jostled around by a bunch of people who don't normally drink, and who wouldn't know proper pub protocol if it smacked 'em in the head with an empty Guinness glass. It's ridiculous.

[pokeyturtle.livejournal.com]

at least in ireland they celebrate it for the religious observance it is. there isn't all this green beer and craziness.

that's one part of their culture they never did lose: they're still very spiritual and devout, even if they never were fluffbunnies.

[tikimama.livejournal.com]

As an atheist, I wish everyone would just shut the hell up about religion anyway. It's a personal thing, no one cares but you and god. And he probably doesn't really care that much, considering he doesn't exist. Or if he does, he's busy already.

I mean, it's like advocating for my brand of tampons (Playtex® Gentle Glide® Odor Absorbing Tampons), and bashing on those people who dare use Tampax or--ungodly heathens!--pads. While this is really important and of great person impact to me, everyone else could really give a shit.

I don't try and convert strangers at the bus stop or readers of LJ to the great way of Playtex® Gentle Glide® Odor Absorbing Tampons, why do people insist on doing it with religion?

[sambear.livejournal.com]

The paleo-Druids were scary dudes, OK? They weren't all sweetness and light. And today's Pagans wouldn't know one if he dropped naked into their bowl of granola.


that said, Patrick can bite my bottom. Har!

[teague.livejournal.com]

But is it ok for those of us who worship one of The Great Old Ones to celebrate? we like beer too. We like beer and brains alots. No one ever invites us to their parties. Poopyheads.

[kellinator.livejournal.com]

Hey, my personal celebration of St. Patrick's Day involves lots and lots of booze for everyone! :D

My only bitch with St. Patricks day?

[taoskye.livejournal.com]

It is another night (much like Cinco De Mayo, or New Year's Eve) when people who do not usually drink much tend to go out and overdo it without considering transportation. Get drunk, and have a good time. Throw up all over whatever if you overdo it in ways your body cannot hang with. All of these things are your personal choice, and does not (for the most part) impact anyone else. Driving while crocked is another thing entirely. I guess this falls into the same category as, "your right to swing your arm stops where my head starts."

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

This Jew thanks you.

[becala.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'm not Christian and I'm still having some fun on St. Paddy's. I've put in my Irish studies time and the conclusion I came to was: What-evah. It's such an old, old argument and what's the point? St. Patrick's in America is not a religious event anyway for most people. I could get all serious and Mary Condren about what snakes represent and celtic goddess blah blah, but I'd really rather drink some beer. Just not green beer.

[kmeghan.livejournal.com]

If I'm not mistaken, St. Patrick was stolen and made a slave by the Irish before he went back and converted them all. so, whatever. Enjoy being Irish for the day, drink a few beers, and give it a rest. :)

[the-missy.livejournal.com]

My take:

beer = good
green-tinted beer = scary
green = not a flattering color on me
being pinched = I punch you

I just don't understand the non-Irish being all, "I'm Irish for today! Pinchy pinchy!" I mean, we get all drinkified on Cinco de Mayo too, but people don't do the whole "I'm Mexican for today! Pokey pokey!"

It's weird for this Irish lass, is all. But right now the beer's calling me.

[piratejenny.livejournal.com]

k, this probably was mentioned already, but I'm not reading through 63 replies. :-)

Druids happy love everyone? Fuck no! Try human sacrifice. And I'm not going on the Romans writings here, I'm going on archaeological evidence. The Celts collected the heads of their enemies; they used brains preserved in lime as both trophies and weapons. Paganism, the olde paganism before Christianity, was bloody. Every sect. Every country.

And hello, Christians persecuting pagans? Sure, it happened. But remember people, it happened the other way around first. Get a grip and go read some decent history and archaeology of the way things really were. Burn those goddamn Llewellyn books. There's nothing real in them. The authors make shit up. Really, they do.

And hey, I'm a Druid, so I can say all this with impunity. Yes, the people my religion developed from were mean and nasty, but that was kinda par for the course.

So all you pagans who feel so oppressed out there, get a grip. Fundie pagans are just as bad--no worse than fundie Christians. Because Pagans tell people they accept whatever religion someone is, while the majority of Christians--esp. the fundies--that they're trying to save people's souls.

So Kelly, I expect no apologies. Enjoy the day! (Or night, as the case may be.)

[piratejenny.livejournal.com]

Oh, one thing about the snakes. Ireland never had any snakes. That was actually a metaphor for the Druids. One of their symbols was the snake. And the seat of their celebrations, Tara, is visible from the hill Patrick built his fire at but the name of which is escaping me at the moment.