This is going to make me some enemies, but I'm too cranky to care.

[kellinator]

Dear Everyone Who's Whining About What a Terrible Man St. Patrick Was and How Pagans Are So Oppressed,

I was looking forward to an evening of St. Patrick's Day fun with friends, so forgive me for being a little bit cranky about all the vitriol being launched on here today.

Are we Christians supposed to spend the day apologizing for St. Patrick converting Ireland fifteen hundred years ago? I'm no expert in Druidic practices, but how do we really know that the Druids were happy-love-everybody people and St. Patrick was a jerk determined to make sure no one was having a good time? It's not as simple as pagans good/Patrick bad (nor, I suppose, as simple as Patrick good/pagans bad). Imagine you're the person who got picked for the human sacrifice and see if you still think so.

Christianity is not all about hate and oppression, no matter what Jerry Falwell tells you. It's got some good ideas about kindness to one's fellow man. Many terrible sins have been committed in the name of Christ, but much good has been done too.

A lot of people out there seem to demand toleration for everyone but Christians. I almost didn't make this post because I knew it would piss people off, but that would be denying what I feel and what I believe. If it's okay for you to express your faith, then it's okay for me to express mine. I may be a lousy excuse for a Christian, but I still am one. If you want religious toleration, I think that's terrific, but you ought to have some for the Christians too. We progressive Christians have got enough to worry about with retaking our faith from the Pharisees currently in charge without having to constantly apologize for being Christian.

And I'm fucking terrified of snakes, so St. Patrick, you're okay in my book.

Comments

[blistermoth.livejournal.com]

hear! hear!

[sleepinbeauty.livejournal.com]

Cheers! Let's get drunk now.

Although in reality, I think you've made a good post with good points. Extremes are bad. Especially religious extremes, whether full-on hatred or full-on insane love with the happy dance.

[vill.livejournal.com]

I was listening to something on NPR the other day about how the religous right and the Republican party are all in each other's pants, thus forming a huge and insurpassable voting block, but the religious left is barely on speaking terms with the Democratic party. It made me think of you.

[harleen.livejournal.com]

everyone has the right to their beliefs when it comes to religion. I am Buddhist/Pagan myself, but I would never knock what another person believes. ignore the naysayers, and enjoy the day!

[gaeirin.livejournal.com]

Actually, I quite enjoyed that. As a Christo-pagan, I get really tired of having to tell off unaccepting pagans who will accept damn near anything else. There comes a time when you just have to learn to deal with the world around you, and you gotta like it or lump it. I think I'm gonna like it.

[harleen.livejournal.com]

*nods* I agree with you.

I am Buddhist/Pagan, so I know exactly what you mean. there are some Pagans out there who are unaccepting of what I believe....I too am sick of having to deal with that.

Kellinator makes a great point, that I applaud...people really do need to just deal with the reality of it all.

[blackacre.livejournal.com]

Fuck religion.

Drink another beer.

Now its all good.

[pokeyturtle.livejournal.com]

none of which means any pagan, particularly an irish/celtic (not the same thing) pagan, has to like st. patrick.

personally i get angry at the idea of christian missionaries going in and converting any culture. by all means try to nudge them away from inhumane practices, but for pete's sake don't destroy them. which is what he did, or began the destruction anyway.

for what it's worth, there were never any snakes in ireland--it's thought the snakes st. patrick "drove off" were symbols either for some unnamed goddess religion (the snake is a goddess symbol) or for the druids.

also, i personally am annoyed at all of pagandom being blamed for the words and actions of a few hundred eclectic wiccan newbies. lemme say it the fifty zillionth time for the uninitiated and unacquainted: WICCA IS NOT THE WHOLE OF PAGANDOM, any more than catholics are the only christians.

[hooper-x.livejournal.com]

People complain about that shit?

God, pagans are a bunch of whiny douchebags.

-HX, notes that for the most part, christians, muslims, and jews are ALSO whiny douchebags... BOO HOO THAT HURTS MY HEART IN A BAD WAY. Suck it up, asshole. Everybody gets shit on eventually. Except heterosexual white males. We rule the world with an iron fist. (Until we get shit on by the Chinese, which will happen, eventually.)

[hooper-x.livejournal.com]

Either that or St. Patrick beat the shit out of Cobra Commander.

-HX, WAS A MAAAAN.

[pokeyturtle.livejournal.com]

p.s., we don't know the druids did human sacrifice. we only have the romans' and christians' word for it.

[nyxalinth.livejournal.com]

I suppose that the lumping everyone together goes both ways, eh? We Pagans do our share, for sure. Speaking for myself, I am not one of the sheeple. There's a lot of Pagans and Wiccans out there who bristle everytime a fluff bunny cries 'Christians are sooo mean and closedminded blah blah blahdiblah!'

All three of my roomates our christians, and seeing as I have yet to be burned at the stake (yes, they know what I am) I can difnately say that I, at least, know for sure that not everyone is the same.

I have no problems with St. Patrick. My beef is with Columbus Day (let's celebrate the beginning of the end for North and central American indigenous cultures! Not) because I am 1/6 Native American.

[hooper-x.livejournal.com]

But you know, in your heart of hearts, that they were SO MUCH COOLER THAT WAY. I'd rather be a part of some badass cult that killed people and burnt shit and terrorised the countryside as opposed to a bunch of hippies sitting in a circle talking about love and flowers and boolshit like that.

-HX, it's like the Aztecs. The Aztecs were so fucking hardcore that it took biological warfare to drop their shit. They were AWESOMELY unapologetic about the human sacrifice.

[ariedana.livejournal.com]

St. Patrick's Day is a day to celebrate your roots, not your religion. After all, Patrick is largely a mythological character. And it's a shame when we let our anger about what happened to our ancestors ruin a perfectly good opportunity to get sloshed.

As far as Christian-bashing goes...when did any group of people become perfect enough to judge the actions of another? We're all people, and we're all power-hungry, and we're all going to try to screw each other over if we get the chance. That sounds really cynical, but look at world history. So no one should say that things are so much worse now than they would've been otherwise, because it's all in degrees.

[stevietee.livejournal.com]

Er... not to speak for her, but I think this comment just epitomized everything Kelly was complaining about.

[harleen.livejournal.com]

you are right...not all Pagans are Wiccan. this is why I do not claim to be Wiccan (not that I have any problems with Wicca, it's just not what I practice).

I too dislike the idea of anyone trying to convert someone else, as everyone is entitled to worship whatever God(s)/Goddess(es) they choose. which is why, even if I do not agree with what soneone believes, I will defend their right to believe in it.

right or wrong...what St. Patrick did is in the past, and it cannot be changed. all we can do is learn from any mistakes made in the past, focus on what is happening now, and work towards a better future....

[marigold.livejournal.com]

your icon is my tattoo

[harleen.livejournal.com]

I also do not like Columbus Day...not only for the reason you stated, but also because it has been proven historically that Columbus did *not* "discover America". I think it is still celebrated out of tradition...even though so-called "VJ Day" is no longer celebrated, which is a good thing!

AMEN SISTER!

[grniiis.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that everything is like that, the conservative or Christian views get pushed aside while the on in left field ideas are embraced and protected. People forget that when our founders made the constitution, they wanted the freedom to express their religious beliefs, and to be FREE to say "One nation under God"...I'm going off on a tangent, but I agree with what you were saying.

[harleen.livejournal.com]

it is a picture of my pendant, actually! very cool. :-)

[galateadia.livejournal.com]

for my two cents,
i wasn't bashing christians, after all i used to be one.
i like the holiday, i just don't like having to celebrate an honestly hateful man (saint, whatever). wether he had his religion to back him up in his hate or not.
i don't apply my dislike of him to all christian religions, i don't even apply it to catholicism.
yes, most pagans are whiny, but so are a hell of a lot of christians. ;)


i don't have to mention that snakes are symbolic do i?

[twisteddaydream.livejournal.com]

Christianity is not all about hate and oppression, no matter what Jerry Falwell tells you. It's got some good ideas about kindness to one's fellow man. Many terrible sins have been committed in the name of Christ, but much good has been done too.

Exactly. The religious right is not all that Christianity is about. One of my pet peeves are groups who sit back and say, "Oh but Christians oppress everyone," when there are groups in their own area of religion that do the same thing. It has more to do with people than relgion anyway. And we all know how people can be, don't we?

Christianity has a wonderfully rich history that has both good and bad elements. Oh. Wait a minute. What group doesn't have that?! The argument that people have been killing the name of God for 2000 years is true, of course. But most any soldier, invader, raider, butcher, baker, and candlestickmaker walks into their field of battle with some form of deity on their tongue. So doesn't that mean they are all killing in the name of god?

You absolutely should not have to apologize for being Christian, Kelly. It's ridiculous. Now, the fuckheads who are bastardizing the religion and continuing these issues, well, maybe they have something to apologize for, but you know what? There's this little thing in this country called freedom of religion. And while it is easier to be some religions as opposed to others, it's a lot better than it was say during the Reformation, when people were being burned as heretics although they were all supposedly worshipping the same god. Last time I checked, Jane down the street wasn't being put on a stake and burned because she was a nice fluffbunny pagan, and Joe, just around the block, wasn't being dragged off to the city square because he prays to Allah. Yes, we have religious persecution in this country, but it comes from all sides, not just from Christians, and it sure is a lot better than even America's past history has been.

And this came out a lot longer and more annoyed than I meant.

[azurelunatic]

Hooray for beer, eh?

I prefer my St. Patrick's day with a little forked-tongue-in-cheek humor.

Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke (or a holiday)

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

I live in New Orleans. We've got a lot of Irish people, a lot of Catholics, and 100% of the population loves a good excuse to party. No matter how Christian-mystic/Pagan-Wiccan/Ecclectic-Kabbalistic I am, I'm wearing my green stockings and I will be raising a glass tonight.

I don't know anything about St. Patrick. I've heard he was mean, I've heard he converted Ireland, I know there weren't any real snakes. (I like snakes. To me, they're like fluffy bunnies. Really. I mean, they used to have a day to go out and kill all the rabbits you could get your hands on, but that's another myth for another day.)

If people are giving you shit, just do what we do down here in the Big Easy. Shrug and say, "Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink!"

Re: AMEN SISTER!

[blondeheroine.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that everything is like that, the conservative or Christian views get pushed aside while the on in left field ideas are embraced and protected.

Never been Pagan in the Southern US, have you? :p