Great minds think alike

[kellinator]

Inigo Montoya to the six-fingered man: I want my father back, you son of a bitch.

The Kellinator to John Ashcroft: I want my civil liberties back, you son of a bitch.

Comments

Re: You can start in on me. (was Re: tell me) - pt 1

[jonnyx.livejournal.com]

"Probably not"? You have a lot more faith in the government, law enforcement and the mainstream media than I do. The laws are in the books now, and they can (and are being used to) silence dissent, criticism, free speech or anything else that threatens the status quo (or the bottom line of large corporations who contribute soft money to their favorite politicians). None of this has anything to do with "justice".

Vast portions of the USA-PATRIOT Act (and the DMCA; and the ECPA; and the UCITA; and the pending SSSCA, but I digress) should never have been enacted. Most likely, many of these new laws will be overturned, but at what cost? How many people get to have their lives destroyed fighting this crap? Years of court appearances and financial ruin for those victimized by these laws and who dare to fight back don't count for much when the same group of idiots in DC can simply introduce more bs legislation every time Congress is in session and never have to deal with the consequences.

As for how far I'm willing to push the issue, well, if I quote the Declaration of Independence, specifically the part about "...whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive..., it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...", and state the (peaceful, nonviolent) alteration of the current US government is my goal (ie - the immediate expulsion and possible trial for treason of any elected lawmaker who introduces or votes into law a bill later found to be Unconstitutional, and the barring of that official from ever holding public office again for violating their oath to uphold and protect the Constitution), I could still technically be accused of committing treason and organizing a conspiracy under the current laws, just as those involved in the Civil rights movement were.

How many more of your rights are you going to let be taken away while you sit by and watch?

Re: You can start in on me. (was Re: tell me) - pt 1

[drunkmuppet.livejournal.com]

I do have alot of faith in the due process in this country but, I agree wholeheartly with you comment about abolishing government if it becomes destructive....there is a whole new breed of leaders who are going to be running this country in the near future these are the people who need to infulence the government. This takes the masses to accomplish this. Do I want to have a camera sitting in my living room? Absolutely not. I beg to differ that many of the laws will never be overturned, what makes this country great is the ability for change.
So what would be your plan if the government would be abolished?
Can you come up with a better bill than the Patriot Act? If so, does it address all of the needs?
Why not try to turn the tables and gain the support you need?

Re: You can start in on me. (was Re: tell me) - pt 1

[jonnyx.livejournal.com]

I didn't say abolish the government; in principal, our system works rather well (hence the increase in civil liberties and average wealth and lifespan of Americans until the last quarter of the 20th century). What we are having problems with are the excesses of corporate capitalism and a general lack of accountability by those in power.

Solutions (and who they would effect):

• Strip corporations of their "citizenship" by overturning the Supreme Court decision of 1886 that made them "fictitious legal entities" - see Adbusters for a good overview; place more accountability for corporate actions on the corp's board members and officers (thus reducing corporate influence);
  
• Enact campaign finance reform laws to reduce corporate and special interest influence (ie - bribery) of elected officials (executive & legislative branches, corporate & special interest lobbies);
  
• Enable presidential line-item veto, in order to eliminate riders that had nothing to do with the original bill from being attached or hidden (legislative branch, corporate & special interest lobbies);
  
• Reduce presidential power to create agencies and departments within the executive branch (ie - more Senate oversight and less power invested in one individual)(executive branch)
  
• Enforce jury-nullification rights and judicial recusal from cases in which they have a conflict of interest (judicial branch);
  
• Remove from office any lawmaker at any level who either introduces or votes for legislation found later to be Unconstitutional, and bar that individual from ever holding public office again (executive and legislative);
  
• end the War on (Some) Drugs - Prohibition didn't work, either.
  

As for "I beg to differ that many of the laws will never be overturned", take a look at how many idiotic laws are still in the books. There is no easy way to eliminate bad laws. Perhaps a time limit should be built in (3yrs at the local level, 5yrs at the state, 10 years at the federal), and if the laws aren't renewed, they expire.

Finally, as for what I'm doing about it, I'm a member of the EFF (though I don't agree with a lot of the compromises they make), EFGA, the ACLU, I vote, and I'm on my way to a law degree (having gone back to college to finish two other degrees as well). I'm refusing to give up on what I see as encroachments on my civil liberties and freedom of speech.

PS - Yes, I can come up with a better bill than the USA-PATRIOT Act (which was written and ratified by numerous committees, btw, not a single individual)(and rushed into law)(which is part of what's wrong with it); I'd like to think that most half-intelligent Americans who know their rights could have done a better job and not made thousands and thousands of otherwise patriotic and law-abiding citizens into potential (on paper, anyway) terrorists.

Re: You can start in on me. (was Re: tell me) - pt 1

[drunkmuppet.livejournal.com]

I agree with many of the statements you make about changing the laws. Espically the one about riders on bills, I do not know how you you end the war on (some)drugs, this would be a judgement call. As for the "corporate citizenship" I do not feel that this is necessarly a bad thing but I do feel that there needs to be more accountability, i.e. make the board members responsible for that entity as if it were a human being(i work in investment management and have been burned by this before.)
As for laws being on the books that do not make sense, many of these are not followed and when someone is taken in on them they are often overturned. (ex. There was a case in GA. a while back where someone was arrested for moving on a Sunday, this law was quickly overturned. ) As an example of setting a time limit, the new tax law "Egtrra" has a horizion built into it. After 2010 it expires.
As an individual I can see how your convention could be construed as a act of treason. It could compromise national security( I am not saying that YOU are compromising national security, but I am sure everyone does not think within the guidelines that you do.) This could create a potentially volatile situation for many people. Now if monitoring were taking place this could have been presented as an opportunity for all levels of Gov't to learn something.
I understand your gripes, but I do not feel that peoples civil liberties are being encroached upon. This is a different time in the world. I am sure someone is reading this post right now, i.e. my company, but the government is a product of our society. To allow U.S. citizens to continue their way of life there must be checks put into place to assure safety of people who are not looking out for their best interest. Unfortnately this is what many people want in this country, to be led along blindly.
I never said that I agreed with the Patriot bill but it was a snap reaction to the events of 9/11 I would venture to guess that has this tragedy not happend the bill would have been reformed before being passed.