Is this really what we've come to?

[kellinator]

I'm sure by now you've all already heard about the Forbes article exhorting men not to marry career women. I don't know if I'm even going to bother saying anything about it because other people have already said it all better (this article at Salon does it nicely, as do many LJ postings), other than perhaps to point out that the author's criteria for "career women" -- working more than 35 hours a week and making more than $30,000 a year -- hardly describes the type of workaholic executive he seems to be referring to, and furthermore very few families can survive on one income these days, making a "career woman" pretty much a necessity for most families. Most of the men I know would be offended at the article's presumption that men cannot take care of themselves and must have wives who function as mothers (not to mention queasy at the thought of sex with Mommy-Wife). In addition, many of the virtuous housewives Michael Noer extolls probably stay in rotten marriages because they cannot afford to leave. But I digress.

After some thought, I've decided that the thing that troubles me the most is not the article, which is asinine, condescending, and under the impression that marriage and other institutions are solely for the benefit of men, or even the fact that Forbes published it, apparently in an attempt to get female readers to cancel their subscriptions.

No, it's the message boards.

Yes, I know. Arguing on the intarwub is the Special Olympics and all that. But even a casual perusal of the reader comments at Forbes shows scores of men gloating and screaming at any women who attempt to post.

Examples:

Fortunately the end of this road is coming and soon. Since the centerpiece of feminazism is the right to kill their own children they are quickly exterminating themselves. The population of ivy league feminists isn't replacing itself and will be just a bad memory in the history text book of foolishness in a generation or two. What is absolutely hillarious is how blind the average "higher educated" feminist is to this reality.

The guy has a point. If you want your career, fine. Just don't expect me to put up with your crap because you want to have your cake and eat it too. The stupidity of feminism is that feminist women want to be treated as men by men while being women. File your complaint with Nature and ask to be sent back as men.... Nature made you the child bearers not us.

Message to aging spinsters: this agony aunt article was written by a man FOR men. What you are doing is called eavesdropping. If men like me brush off the insulting man-hunt articles in Cosmo (and we do), then I suggest you get a grip and follow our example. Feminism is all about choices, right? Well, you career gals have made your choice, and now we men get to decide whether we like that or not. At the very least, you'll still have your "exciting" careers to fall back on, no? In the meantime, have fun cuddling up to your Blackberry.

American women are good for sportfucking and little else. If you want to be happy, marry a subserviant Asian or Eastern European woman.

And I'm just aghast... it's not that I'm shocked that there are men like this, but that there are so many of them, and they're just dripping with anger and looking for people to take their aggressions out on, and never considering that they're a part of the equation too, no, they're just persecuted... and I want to give up.

What's the point in even trying to interact with people when they're not going to listen to a goddamned word I say, just because I'm a woman, or liberal, or Not Them? Of course, they'd say I'm the closed-minded one because there's no way they can convince me that George W. Bush is a good man and I need to get in the kitchen and make them some pie. And these people are everywhere. I feel safe and insulated in my little world with my friends... but am I? Rather than giving myself ulcers, shouldn't I just retreat into that world and be grateful for it?

(I'm going to interrupt myself to say: I know some of you like Bush. And I'm stating here for the record that while I might be fine with you as a person, I absolutely consider supporting George W. Bush and his policies to be an immoral act. If you can't deal with me thinking that, fuck off.)

I just feel so frustrated, and useless, and fucking helpless when I see shit like this and know there's not a goddamned thing I can do to change it.

But since Michael Noer wants to send us back to the dark ages, let's do him one better and go back even further -- to a little play called Lysistrata. Ladies, I challenge you to join me. Let's make sure that Michael Noer never gets a piece of ass he didn't have to pay for for the rest of his sniveling life.

Comments

[squiddna.livejournal.com]

Changing society for the better is slow work. I know that's little solace when the malice is pointed right at you, but it's a matter of outcompeting the assholes. I'd like to say we're slowly winning, but I'm not in the trenches. I just call people on it when they're assholes in this regard, but as you've said some people will never see it our way.

[spudmanson.livejournal.com]

it's really sad to see all of these men who just can't face reality.

Yes, women fought to get out of the kitchen. Yes, women are the child bearers. Yes, women have for years played the role of MommyWife, the penultimate mate who waits on her husband and children and never takes any time for herself.

But that doesn't mean they enjoyed it.

And not ALL women are career minded. I WANT to be MommyWife, I just can't AFFORD it. I can't AFFORD to not work, just stay at home and let HubbyPoo bring home the bacon double cheeseburger. But in today's society it's really DIFFICULT to even be able to afford basic things like that 62inch Plasma Screen TV, the Genuine Leather Lay-Z-Boy recliner, and the pizza that you ordered last sunday while you were watching the big game with all of your buddies who never even bring their own BEER. And your subscription to playboy? HA!

So to all the men out there who are terrified of a working woman? GET OVER YOURSELF!

[leopard-print.livejournal.com]

Did you see Noer's other article?

The Economics of Prostitution

I particularly love his opening line: "Wife or whore? The choice is that simple."



I swear, Kelly. I think we've time warped back to the 1950's!

(And you know what else I think? Noer must have been hanging out with JAY! They both seem to regard women as sluts and whores.)

[beckyzoole.livejournal.com]

I just read that other article, and, to be fair, you seem to have misinterpreted it. It's a review of someone else's article in an economics journal, and the "wife or whore" dichotomy is the premise of that other article. It's not Noer's -- in fact, Noer is critical of it: In particular, the assumption that there is no "third way" between wife and whore is problematic, if not outright offensive.

I wonder if his ridiculous "career girl" article is actually a work of satire?

[leopard-print.livejournal.com]

No, I'm afraid I didn't misinterpret it. I wish I had.

Yes, at times he does appear scornful of Korn and Edlund's findings, but that does not outweight such classic lines as:

"But back to whores: Edlund and Korn admit that spouses and streetwalkers aren't exactly alike. Wives, in truth, are superior to whores in the economist's sense of being a good whose consumption increases as income rises--like fine wine. This may explain why prostitution is less common in wealthier countries. But the implication remains that wives and whores are--if not exactly like Coke and Pepsi--something akin to champagne and beer. The same sort of thing."

and

"As with Becker, a key differentiator in Edlund and Korn's model is reproductive sex. Wives can offer it, whores can not."


I wish I could think his work was satire, because it certainly rings with a level of ridiculousness I would expect from Comedy Central. Sadly though, I think he's totally serious.

[beckyzoole.livejournal.com]

I read the same lines as sarcastic, though, as saying that Edlund and Korn imply that wives and whores are like Coke and Pepsi, etc.

I looked up the list of Noer's previous articles on the Forbes site, and they include an article on Santa Claus being unfair to labor. I'm thinking more and more that he intended this "career girl" piece to be a satire piece, a sarcastic comment on the studies he quotes.

[leezechka.livejournal.com]

there are man hating articles in Cosmo? All the ones I've seen are about how to get guys off....

[lefthand.livejournal.com]

Happily, we are sophisticated enough to realize that no one person speaks for a gender. I found his perspective and his fans pretty short sighted. There will always be people who demand the world bow down before them because of their blood, race, money or gender but that doesn't mean we have to take them seriously.

[jerel.livejournal.com]

I would be happy to get in the kitchen and make these men some pie. Which I would then smash in their faces, and then kick them in the kneecaps. :)

[stevenglassman.livejournal.com]

After reading the comments posted by Kel, I just have one question-

what on earth is sportfucking?

My god, that's an Olympic event I can get behind!

Just think of the team names!

[raistlinbrown.livejournal.com]

And then there are guys like me hoping that some wonderful, successful career woman falls for my unambitious, underachieving, no-career ass of a self so that I don't die alone and destitute. :- )

[raistlinbrown.livejournal.com]

Oh, and if any woman that joins your Lysistrata Michael Noer boycott is feeling particularly horny and dismayed by the number of Noer minions in the world, I'm available. :- )

[reannon.livejournal.com]

Bwahahahaha!

(We're particularly fond of men who do dishes. I've read about these men. Seen pictures.)

[lefthand.livejournal.com]

Hell, you've actually been seen in public with one.

[kellinator.livejournal.com]

I have one. You get to meet him next weekend.

(sorry, I shouldn't brag, but I'm just so amazed!)

[leezechka.livejournal.com]

How do we know that it isnt the men having carers that is causing the problem? I bet the divorce rate for working men is way up there!

[teague.livejournal.com]

I'd guess it'd be close to 50%, you know...what with there being no men divorcing other men yet. *tisk*

I don't know the exact statistic, of course. But I do know that if the cause of the divorce isn't the man being unemployed, then I guess their career factors in.

[paradisacorbasi.livejournal.com]

Fortunately the end of this road is coming and soon. Since the centerpiece of feminazism is the right to kill their own children they are quickly exterminating themselves. The population of ivy league feminists isn't replacing itself and will be just a bad memory in the history text book of foolishness in a generation or two.

I'd say he has it backwards. Because the "feminazis" don't really want the right to kill their own children. They want the right to decide when and under what conditions they will have them, if any. And any man who isn't supportive of a woman can expect to go unphucqued and thus have his precious little swimmers unfulfilled, and thus be the one to die out and all his brethren with him.


Message to aging spinsters: this agony aunt article was written by a man FOR men. What you are doing is called eavesdropping.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Is he really serious? He is! Isn't that cute?

A couple things need to be made clear to this poor, feckless specimen:

1. It's Forbes magazine. It's available on newsstands. Which any person, male or female, can purchase if they've got the $5. Yes. Women make money. Imagine that.

2. It's Forbes magazine. It's available in this case online. Which any person, male or female, can access if they have access to a computer. If it was strictly for men, and men alone, it would have been:
a) In an all men, all the time magazine like Maxim or Playboy. And even then, there's no guarantee some woman wouldn't buy it and see it just for the article. Because you know, we have minds, we know how to read.
b) Login required on the online site.
*!!) Oh no! Whoopsie! Even if it were password required, there's no internet protocol to determine whether your cyberphallus is genuine or simply someone saying so. And to actually do the IP tracking to determine one's genuine gender? PRIVACY VIOLATIONS! ILLEGAL! Then again, this yobbo probably supports the Lemur too, and doesn't see anything wrong with illegal privacy violations.

Holy crap!

[spikepage.livejournal.com]

What I cannot believe is how the dickhead that delivered the sexist rant above then felt the need to top his little bastardgasm off with that racist bullshit. What I am guessing here is that his wife probably ditched him for a Korean man who, unlike him, doesn't beat the hell out of her for forgetting to wash his lucky jockey shorts.

As for the "liberated woman", I generally consider myself to be one IN SPITE OF the fact that I a) do not have a career that is usually dominated by men, b) am plenty happy to have a man who can take charge of the situation when needed, and c) do not think all men are pigs.... but DAMMIT, with fucktards like the above-quoted, it's no damn wonder ladies spend so much money on D-cell batteries and booze. It's also a sad shitty shame that jackoffs like him get any share of anybody's attention and give men in general a bad name.

[10dimensions.livejournal.com]

No, she doesn't. I'd be surprised if she even owns a pie pan. This, of course, is why she is against his position.

[rocketmelee.livejournal.com]

I have long advocated starting an online website and database entitled DO NOT SLEEP WITH THIS MAN, which would catalogue men that no one should ever have sex with, why no one should ever have sex with them, and provide pictures for identification purposes. Why not band the usual suspects together and set something like this up, with Noer staring as our prime example of someone who should never ever ever ever get to have sex EVER?

[ariedana.livejournal.com]

There is a site for that: http://www.dontdatehimgirl.com/.

[10dimensions.livejournal.com]

Before you get too depressed, try to remember that internet message boards bring out the worst. People get on those things because they have no friends — no one else wants to listen to their bullshit. I'd consider it unlikely any of those men even have women upon which to inflict themselves.

[ariedana.livejournal.com]

If you ever want to get annoyed, go read the comments of a sports blog. Not the posts -- most good sports bloggers minimize their women-bitching to subjects like honey-do lists and the occasional sexual innuendo, which a proper female sports fan can handle in a good-natured way. But the commenters can be complete assholes.

This woman wrote an excellent preseason piece on the Bengals for Deadspin yesterday and got more props from it than most of the men who've written. But then there were the idiots who said, "I never listen to a woman talk about football" or, worse, "Football is sacred, so get back in the kitchen." I'm sure that was intended with at least a grain of salt, but dammit, I don't tell guys to stop watching soap operas and fix my car.

Does this really equate with what these misogynistic assholes are saying on the Forbes piece? In a way it's not, but in a way it is. In both places, the opinions of women are pigeonholed based on stereotypes. And yes, that sometimes goes the other direction, but with some of these men, it's almost abusive.

[weaktwos.livejournal.com]

If you were assholes like they are and had to live with yourself, you'd strike out at the world just to keep from beating your own face in.

[blondeheroine.livejournal.com]

Everyday, we get closer and closer to a society that resembles that of "The Handmaid's Tale." It scares the fuck out of me.

All I've got to say: If that does ever happen, I won't live long, but I will go down taking some muther fuckers with me.

[weaktwos.livejournal.com]

Good grief. That's horrendous. But yeah, you can't expect everyone to be hip to equality. Some still feel that traditional gender roles should be adhered to. I guess once men feel entitled to an authoratative position, they feel threatened if someone else can do it better.

[teague.livejournal.com]

You know what it is...They are afraid of women. That's right. They are afraid of the Almighty Uterus! ALMIGHTY UTERUS!

[mamomo.livejournal.com]

I'm perpetually amazed by how many men out there seem to be so threatened by women (not just feminists) and by the idea of gender equality. Considering how bitter these guys are, despite still being in much better social and financial positions than most women and in no way underpriveledged, I think they must have had some sort of tragic childhood incidents involving women. Or they have Mommy issues. Something psychological is going on for sure b/c it really feels like these guys fear and despise women, as opposed to just feel superior to them. It's very disturbing.

[kth-dragon.livejournal.com]

Blarg. I agree that "career woman" should have been much better defined. I fit into two of those three criteria, and yet my job is not really that important to me. I think it's the level of priority the job is given that defines who is career oriented and who isn't. And this should apply to both genders. Anyone who puts career (and self) first always and can't/won't compromise shouldn't get married at all. Period.

And I love the guy that thinks that because of feminism, society is going to let the terrorists win. >..< Bad arguments (mostly containing personal insults) are coming from both directions now that the counterpoint article stands beside the first. A lot of what both genders are saying is either just rhetoric or kinda scary, or both.

Anyway... what you're seeing there, and the predominant stupidity and viciousness therein, are people who are responding because they feel strongly. You're not seeing the people who are reading it and then dismissing it as not applicable to his/her life (or just plain garbage). I don't think the respondents statistically represent the people who read it, so I also don't think the percentage of angry-at-women men is that high. So you're allowed to hope that there is a goodly number of okay men out there to talk to.

And that's a good thing. You don't want the icky ones to have so much control over you that you retreat from society just to avoid them, do you? You can interact with whoever you like, and if there are those who resent your interaction, they can tell you so (and you can just avoid each other). And who knows? You may just change things, even if it's just one person's opinion or viewpoint.

*continues rambling ad nauseum*

[grniiis.livejournal.com]

Good post. I can't bring myself to read the article, I just know already the guy is an idiot.

Bet you he's divorced and single. Ex-wife made more money than him and he wasn't any good in bed. She probably left him for the milkman.