Oh good heavens help us...

[kellinator]

The latest idea from Herr Shrub: Let's get rid of the income tax and replace it with a national sales tax.

This is the worst idea I've heard from the Idiot-in-Chief since... oh, who's counting?

I don't know a lot about economics, but I come from Tennessee, home of one of the highest sales taxes in the nation (including on food, and yes I do mean groceries). And sales taxes are definitely regressive.

Do the math. Say a person needs x amount of food to survive, taxed at 8%. For Bill Gates that tax is nothing; for the average middle-class American it's an 8% jump in the food bill. Talk about your cost of living increase...

I guess this is his way of saying he doesn't think he's put enough of the tax burden on the middle and lower class.

And if this post pisses you off, I don't give a fuck.

EDIT: Excellent article from resipsaloquitor:
http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/11/news/economy/election_tax/index.htm?cnn=yes

Comments

[wintersweet.livejournal.com]

Oh, the evil!!!

[unanon.livejournal.com]

Holy shit.

*head hurts* I've had it up to HERE with Bush this week. *raised hand to top of door-frame*

And I'm a fucking Republican, dammit. *hates*

[kellinator.livejournal.com]

At this point I can't fathom why any Republican would vote for Bush. Isn't the hallmark of the party supposed to be fiscal responsibility? The man wouldn't know fiscal responsibility if it bit him on the ass.

Re: Because I knew you would like this

[kellinator.livejournal.com]

Uhhh... what?

[blackacre.livejournal.com]

Coming from NY where we have sales tax on everything which varies county wide (here, in UPSTATE ONONDAGA COUNTY its currently 8.25%, and MIGHT get jacked up higher)...

Total agreement. Hell yeah, in fact.

[football-swan.livejournal.com]

No income tax, replaced with a national sales tax isn't a new concept. This idea has been bandied about many times prior, and obviously has gone nowhere.

Don't think it will this time, either. The voters aren't stupid.

[jerseygirl1.livejournal.com]

Exactly... in fact, this reeks of a way to get the vote of republicans who are sick of him, since this is a very conservative idea.

[tenn-crichton.livejournal.com]

Here's something to piss you off.

Got this link from one of astrophysicat's friends about the supposed fairtax. To say the least, we've come to the conclusion that this is a bunch of horses#%$.

[xforge.livejournal.com]

Smart politicos keep it from looking like a tax on the poor, which is what the hell it is, by exempting groceries and clothes and car tires and stuff like poor people damn well need to frickin' live. But do I trust President F*ckhead not to do that? Not as far as I could throw the frickin' house he's stayin' in, I don't.

[gaiagurl.livejournal.com]

and if they're gonna do that anyway, what is the point of a flat tax??? keep the system we HAVE, dammit, and simplify it somewhat!

[penguinicity.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately the linked article doesn't say if he means a straight up sales tax (which is asinine and horribly regressive) or a sales tax combined with a refund (such as the one advocated by fairtax.org which is the most sensible tax plan I've yet seen. Given past performance, my money's on the former. Or, possibly, someone explained it to him as the latter but that was a bit too complicated so he understood it as the former.

[dwivian]

The ONLY way it'll get through is with the fairtax plan. And, that'd be just fine by me. Sales taxes are NEVER regressive, but merely equal. Alas, equality is something the masses will never accept, instead preferring to "not tax you, not tax me, tax the guy behind the tree."

[moongarden1971.livejournal.com]

How can one man be so fucking STUPID???

[skellington.livejournal.com]

I have no idea how the plan as proposed over at fairtax.org would actually work out, but as it is proposed, it is not regressive.

They give a flat rebate of the amount of sales tax times (some magic number near the poverty line) as a rebate, regardless of what you spend.

So you'd get a check from the government on a monthly or quarterly basis for something like 20k * 22% ( / 12 if monthly.)

So if you are poor, and make below 20k a year, you end up with a net positive from the plan. You also don't pay social secuirty and medicare, which represent 15% of your income in the present system (discounting the EIC and other tax credits.)

And, it taxes the illegal immigrants (and doesn't pay them the rebate? hmmm), and gets rid of normal people filing tax returns (which is a huge "industry" which is a complete waste of skin.)

Since it gets the number of people collecting/paying taxes down to a relatively small group (retail businesses), it is much easier to do audits and enforcement.

Of course, this being the shrub, he'll surely mess it up, but as proposed it doesn't completely suck. Except we'll probably end up with a NRST AND an Income Tax. Gah. Politicians.

[kelliecoo.livejournal.com]

I am so pissed off at you right now, I could spit. Ha, ha, just kidding. A national sales tax is a stupid idea if it included basic essentials like food, gas (we are already taxed on that), etc. The stuff that everyone needs to survive...But if the big products we purchase were nationally taxed that would be awesome because then you know the guy in the Bentley is paying way more tax than the guy in the Hyundai. The IRS sucks, when you get married, your tax burden becomes horrendous. I used to get money back every year before marriage, now we owe about $4k and we take out more than the IRS recommends for our individual salaries.

[jphthebachelor.livejournal.com]

I have a problem with this Bentley argument. The amount that the Bentley driver pays in tax is strictly speaking larger, but actually accounts for a much smaller amount of his total income. So the tax burden on the Hyundai driver is considerably greater. That's what makes the tax unfair and regressive.

[gmslegion.livejournal.com]

You're assuming that the pre-tax cost of the food will remain the same. Since the fairtax (cited by others above) assumes that the income tax will be removed entirely, not just from your takehome pay, the costs of production and distribution will drop. Ideally, and this assumes your grocer is willing to lower the cost of the food since it now costs less for him to purchase, you're adding the 8% you cite to a smaller base cost.

I don't blame you for being skeptical. I was, and I continue to be. Nevertheless, I've been completely sold by Congressman Linder on the fairtax, and I'm stunned and amazed that now, after all this time, our idiot president has finally done something with which I agree. I might have to knock him back from #2 to #3 on the "worst presidents ever" list.

Seriously, have a look at the fairtax.org website and read over the FAQs. They do a very decent job explaining it.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

why do you assume expenditures would drop? Because they are smaller than current taxation of corporate income? A business can spend billions of dollars on materials and still only net one million - that's a multiplicative difference by one thousand! 30% on that one billion dollars is a LOT of money. 30% on the netted one million is paltry in comparison. I see no savings for large non-service-industry businesses here.

[libidoergosum.livejournal.com]

if applied correctly, the NST (National Sales Tax) would be a good idea. It would be a good idea if things like food and fuel were not taxed. But on non-essential items, I think it would be awesome. It would tax income that otherwise would not be taxable such as tourism, drug money (drug dealers/consumers are consumers of legitimate goods as well) as well as high-dollar items that the rich consume (that would have escaped taxation based on the "capitol gains" tax cut. The idea is reasonable, but in his hands it is not.

[sempereadem.livejournal.com]

msick and tired of handing over 35% of my paycheck in taxes. After all my other contributions, I'm losing 40% of each paycheck.

I'd be happy to fork over extra sales tax on a box of popsicles if I was keeping the 35% of my income that goes to support schools I don't have kids in and a public transportation system I don't use and civic programs that don't benefit me.

How do you know when you've become a Republican? When you get offended at the thought of someone else taking your shit without asking permission and giving it to someone else who didn't earn it.

testify! ;)

[10dimensions.livejournal.com]

Yeah, once you become a home owner you get to shell out an extra $2k [for us, anyway] a year in property taxes, the bulk of which are school taxes.

Plus the 35% out of our income... when Dave and I were both employed by someone other than ourselves, we were both claiming zero exemptions, and still owed. *grumbles about marriage penalty*

Now that I'm self-employed I get to see firsthand how much is going to taxes and Social Security. When you're employed your employer has to pay that matching share, you never see it. When you work for yourself you pay your share and the "employer" share. But just because your employer pays, doesn't mean they're actually paying it for you. That's just salary you're not getting, because they have to hand it over to the gov't first. So, you have to count that amount into what you're paying in income taxes.

[My old boss always used to say that if employers stopped paying employee taxes up front, and if people actually had to pay it all themselves and saw how much taxes are costing them out of their potential income, there would be a national uprising.]

Plus we pay sales tax on nearly everything we buy. And don't get me started on ad valorem taxes, gas taxes, tariffs and all sorts of other ways that every dollar you make is taxed into oblivion. Everything we buy has been taxed and tariffed so much, no wonder a pair of jeans cost $30!

By the time all is said and done, we're giving the damn gov't at least 50 cents on every dollar we make, in some form or another. And we have horrible educational quality, a health care system that is fast excluding all but the wealthiest, and Social Security that, according to the statement they recently sent me, will only be able to cover about 75% of what I'm due when I retire. If I'm lucky.

Will even a good flat tax plan fix all of that? Who the fuck knows. I'm politically cynical enough to say not a chance in hell...the gov't will find some way to fuck it up no matter how simple it is. I wish I had a good answer. I don't. But it does piss me right the hell off.

Boy I'm writing long comments today! ;)

[phyrra.livejournal.com]

Since I'm still in Memphis, TN, I can attest that the sales tax here is 9.25% (more than when we were living in California) and yes it is on food and just about everything. It suuuuuucks.

[dwivian]

::notes that we have a 6% income tax + 5+%Sales tax in GA::

Oh, hush. :)

[misanthropist.livejournal.com]

Well, I think they would respond by saying that all of those federal taxes that come out of your paycheck wouldn't, and thus a "food tax" wouldn't be so bad.

I disagree, but that is what they would say.

And this would mean that we pay like 14-20% in sales tax (because the states need money too)?

[skellington.livejournal.com]

Actually, the number they've come up with is an "inclusive" tax of 23%, which is equal to a sales tax (add-on tax) of 30%.

Of course, Social Security and Medicare (FICA) taxes are already 15.3% ("inclusive")..

i.e. you get paid $100, the government taxes 15.3%, and you end up with $85 to spend. vs. you spend $85, with a 30% (plus state) sales tax, and end up paying about $110. Which is probably a wash since you were paying more than the 15.3%, and there's a rebate on all spending up to the poverty line.

And for what it's worth, Social Security is a regressive tax, although that's not too unreasonable given what it is for...

SKG

[harleen.livejournal.com]

*waits for my cost of living increase on the $2.13 an hour I make before tips as a server. oh yes, I forgot...it is NOT going to happen. how very silly of me.*

well, it's not a horrible idea, based on how it *should* work. at least they won't take income tax out of my checks. but this is Dubya...he'll screw it up for sure!

it gets better concerning Dubya...*check this out*.

I swear, if Derr Fuhrer Shrub gets re-elected in November...I don't know what I will do! it's becoming much too Orwellian for my taste....

[reannon.livejournal.com]

This was a big part of Alan Keyes' various presidential campaigns, and it sunk him with moderate conservatives. Sales taxes that already exist will not go away, because cities and schools need that money - that's part of local control of tax revenue, a hallmark of traditional conservatism. What it will do is vastly increase that sales tax, to where we're spending more on the taxes on a pair of jeans than on the jeans themselves. It'll hit families shopping for school supplies and people buying cars - particularly the high-end cars, which may be subject to a luxury tax from their respective states on top of the state sales tax, local sales taxes and now this federal sales tax.

In short, you'll be nibbled to death by ducks instead of one medium-sized chunk a year. Not an improvement.

[reannon.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, the point of mentioning Alan Keyes... he's the guy they picked to run against Barack Obama for Senate here.

And I forgot to add hotels to the list of people who get royally screwed. Atlanta has a 14-percent tax already; Memphis is 11.5 percent, I believe. Can you imagine how much more it would cost for a hotel room?

[dmaster.livejournal.com]

I hate the huge sales tax in TN, and I don't think the lack of a state income tax really makes it worthwhile. I'm punished for actually buying things. I think we're up to something silly like 9.25% here on things except for food.

It's almost like punishing people for buying goods and services. I know I'm more inclined to buy things whenever I'm out-of-state just so I can save 3-4% (especially if it's big) since it's like a huge hidden cost in almost everything you buy.

The whole "encourage investment, job growth and wealth accumulation by making investment and savings totally tax-free" pitch is just Republican nonsense, because the majority of America doesn't have enough money to give a crap about wealth accumulation. So, yeah, dumbest idea yet.

(P.S., Hi and stuff I remembered you from margaritas last week and started being nosy and looking at journals of people I saw there and stuff and thought you seemed pretty interesting)

[terminalwriter.livejournal.com]

The whole "encourage investment, job growth and wealth accumulation by making investment and savings totally tax-free" pitch is just Republican nonsense, because the majority of America doesn't have enough money to give a crap about wealth accumulation.

That one I don't buy. I've increased my net worth by over $21,000 over the past year and a half, with a wife and two kids. When I started, last February I was making a little less than $23K/year. I picked up a second job, slashed spending money on unnecessary things, started paying down debt, and started upping my retiremnt contributions. This year, between the two jobs, I'll make a little under $40K/year, not high income for a family of four by almost any definition. Once the debt is gone, I'm going to work towards fully funding my retirement account and going back to school to increase my means.

It's all about willing to do a little sacrificing and extra work. And I bought and paid off a car during that period as well, because my old one kicked the bucket. This is a good step to get away from the consumer mentality and towards a savers mentality.

As for not having enough money to worry about wealth accumulation. Once consumer debt is gone any little bit helps. Thanks to compound interest, every bit you put away is working for you instead of against you.

[polychromatic22.livejournal.com]

I sincerely do suggest you actually read the literature on the national sales tax, rather than simply jumping to conclusions. As you said, you aren't an economist, so perhaps you should look into it yourself rather than just taking a gut reaction and rolling with it.

A good place to start is here for questions answered about the idea. (most especially, check out the one entitled "progressivity of the FairTax" Here's another brief sketch of the bill as it has been proposed. (H.R. 25)

Some of the things I especially like about hr 25 as it stands:
the used goods clause. There is no tax on used goods. This includes homes, cars, appliances, clothes, so forth. Not only does this help those just barely cutting above the poverty line but it also greatly encourages recycling. I would expect a much larger market for second hand goods to be developed if it passed.
the monthly rebate check that gives you back the money that you would have to spend on necessities that month. Food and goods are taxed, but you are given a rebate based on how much up to the poverty line you spend necessarily. "Rich assholes" who choose to spend $50 on a steak dinner are going to have to pay for it.
those who aren't paying taxes now will be forced to. There are literally millions of unpaid taxes each year that are earned illegally. No taxes are paid on them either because they were earned criminally or because the employer is not complying with uncle sam. This puts those bucks into the tax system. If you make $500k a year as a drug dealer, you're now going to have to pay for your bling bling.

Finally I like it because it takes the taxes out of the politicians hands. I really want to take away the ability of politicians to obfuscate the issues with promises or more money to you if you simply vote for them. (one of the reasons I want the drug prohibitions repealed also, these are not issues, not true issues, these are ways of controlling us. you never have to tell us what you actually are going to do as a politician once you are elected as long as you tell us that you'll tax us less [or move the tax burden to a different group of people] or help fight this horrible drug war).

You can read the bill here.

Here's some opposition to the bill. Though I must say, many of his arguements are addressed in the supportive literature. His best arguements are mainly where he doubts it will be as simple as it sounds. Mostly his arguement come down to the idea that 23% is unlikely, that itwill have to be higher, which will cause evasion.
This isn't a horrible arguement if you

I really don't expect you to support it, though. As it stands, it is mainly sponsered by republicans, 51 or them. Only 3 democrats have lent their support.
I hate both parties fairly equally, so I'm fairly happy with whatever either one suggests that I think is actually a good idea.

Never mind the idea of deciding whether an idea is good or not on it's own merits, definitely decide it along partisan lines. Republicans do it, Democrats do it, why shouldn't everyone?

[polychromatic22.livejournal.com]

I don't know what I was going to say at the point where that sentence chopped off, sorry (this isn't a horrible arguement if you)

Possibly something along the lines of "if you read the arguement" or maybe "if you agree that 23% is impossible" or something like that.

Dunno. I was trying real hard to give you links for you to read about it and decide yourself rather than just giving my own arguements, so it's a bit disjointed cuz of the surfing and linking I was doing. Sorry.

[the-yellow-king.livejournal.com]

Risking certain death, I would not mind if this came to pass. It would actually benefit me. Why?

I can't get out of paying income taxes. I have no way around it. As a single male making approximately $25k a year, I have very little to use in the way of skirting around tax laws. Even my father, a tax consultant, can do little to assist me on that level. I either need to make a) way less money or b) way more money in order to find loopholes and work-arounds. Even the educational tax breaks provide me with very little.

I also have no incentive to make a few thousand more than I do now, which I could push for. The last time I went above the 25k level, I was paying out taxes at the end of the year instead of getting a refund. It was actually more money for me to make less than to make more. If I were making 50-60k, then I could get somewhere...but till then, it's just sad.

OTOH, with a national sales tax, I can find many ways around the problem. There is so much I could do by grey/black market that the savings to my income would be worth it. More money, more happiness for me.

Is this a selfish opinion, you say? Of course it is! However, when we start talking about money, making it, and keeping it, it immediately becomes all about the individual. It is the final and most important equation - how does this benefit ME?

$0.02 worth.

[gladstone.livejournal.com]

You wouldn't even have to resort to the gray/black market to avoid the sales tax. Just buy used. Used goods, having already been taxed when they were new, won't be taxed again.

[sujata.livejournal.com]

Funniest Shrubya quote (and comment thereon) that I've heard lately:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/snow_lion/49982.html

You and snow_lion would just adore each other, if I ever get a chance to introduce y'all. ;-)

[meganinhiding.livejournal.com]

I think its safe to say that Dubya is the worst president of my lifetime. Nixon at least had a brain in his head. God help us if he gets re-elected. Four more years of damage he can do.

[meganinhiding.livejournal.com]

I think its safe to say that Dubya is the worst president of my lifetime. Nixon at least had a brain in his head. God help us if he gets re-elected. Four more years of damage he can do.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

The Fair Tax proposal clearly states that business-to-business transactions will not be taxed. Eliminating corporate income tax, business income tax AND all business-to-business sales tax means businesses no longer pay ANY tax. Oh I really love the idea of businesses savings TONS of money while I save a tiny amount. What makes you think they will pass that savings on to me??? What incentive do they have to do that? I'm going to buy certain things (maybe not necessities but "happy" things) anyway. In the current economy, people STILL pay $5 for a delicious cup of special coffee. Why should the coffee shop lower the price once they are keeping more of their money?