Sexism and beauty

[kellinator]

The Britney Spears discussion has reminded me of something else that galls me.

Think about all the ugly male rock stars out there. They're everywhere. Now can you name one female rock star (besides Janis Joplin, she's the exception that proves the rule) who isn't drop-dead gorgeous? A woman may well have the talent, but she can't suceed if she doesn't have the looks. And the music industry (and the entertainment industry in general) will promote a beautiful but talentless woman over a not-so-pretty, but wildly talented woman any time.

Comments

[tommydiablo.livejournal.com]

Macy Grey, Chrissy Hind, Marianne Faithful, and Joni Mitchell.

[deza.livejournal.com]

They may not have pretty faces, but they are thin. That's what the music industry really looks at these days--flat tummies and artificially enhanced boobs.

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[tommydiablo.livejournal.com]

What about Mama Cass? Or Carnie Wilson, whichever she was? Aretha Franklin is also a large woman.

[kellinator.livejournal.com]

Carnie Wilson is now considered "cool" because she had stomach-reduction surgery. And it does sound like it was necessary for her health... But still, now all of a sudden she's "acceptable" and "cute."

As a young teen, I stopped listening to Wilson Phillips when I saw one of their videos and noticed that the two skinny ones got to flirt with boys while all Carnie (who did most of the lead singing) got to do was talk on the phone.

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[tommydiablo.livejournal.com]

I do agree with you though. Entirely too much emphasis is put on how a person looks. I just did what you asked and provided some examples of people who didn't fit the rules. I also think Missy Elliott is horribly unattractive, but she is quite popular. I would say Carole King, but I find her to be quite attractive and people aren't into her so much anymore. Carly Simon is another I don't find pretty but she is a talented performer.

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[deza.livejournal.com]

And how many of them are in the current pop music scene, competeing with the aforementioned Ms Spears?

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[tommydiablo.livejournal.com]

I set forth examples under the criteria of the initial question. She asked for "rock stars", not current pop stars. Each of the examples have their own following, mainstream or not. I simply responded as she had asked, given my understanding of the question. Had she stipulated that they had to be current pop stars in direct competition with Britney Spears, I would have responded differently. I would have offered Missy Elliott as an example. I think she's the only one who comes close to the Fool's Gold standard of Britney Spears.

For the most part, I agree with the argument offered in this post and her previous. I was simply playing Devil's advocate, offering a literal answer to her question, answering to the letter of her query, not the spirit. Had I known that it was to be limited, I would have answered accordingly.

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[deza.livejournal.com]

Ah, but you have trespassed into the territory of "Women bashing cute-young-things-that-must-die."

Personally, I'm having a great deal of fun with all this. :)

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[tommydiablo.livejournal.com]

Believe me, I have the same grips about the boybands and all that. Same with those teen movies filled with matinee idols who look pretty but can't act.

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[deza.livejournal.com]

At least there is some variety in actors. Cameron Manheim (sp?) is making great strides for heavyset women.

Of course, being built more like Sophia Loren myself, I keep hoping for a return to the earlier ideals of beauty.

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[tommydiablo.livejournal.com]

Mmm, Sophia Loren is still very gorgeous, I favor that body type more than Cameron Diaz. I also think Kathy Bates is making great strides, she is strong and attractive for it. I think I might add you to my friends list (and not because of the Sophia Loren thing ... but it certainly helps ;oþ).

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[deza.livejournal.com]

Go right ahead. Just be warned: I'm pretty boring. ;)

[polychromatic22.livejournal.com]

I don't think carnie wilson is an incredible example when you remember that when she was fat the groups handlers consistenly put her behind painos and rocks and things ("hey, people won't notice quite how fat she is if they can't see all of her...")

i think it's incredibly awful that people are being moved to alter their bodies so severly that they can never ever live again without medical help. people who do the radical stomach stapling wilson did have a stomach the size of an average thumb. they can eat no more than a few teaspoons at a time, and must take huge amounts of vitamins and fiber because of how incredibly bad it is for the body to not just eat.
i agree that there needs to be a solution to the whole thing, but endangering someone's life that seriously? what they basically do is make you so that you are physically (if not psychologically) anorexic for the entire rest of your life.

there's a solution, and it's true that diet and exercise are a massive part of the solution, but there is more and more evidence everyday that diet and exercise by themselves will simply not get every single person thin. the chemical make-up of the human body, not to mention the behavior of our genes, is very little understood, still (gosh, for years they did medical tests on men thinking that it would be just the same on women even though we have entirely different systems, doctors are only walking out of the dark ages now..)

[kellinator.livejournal.com]

Also, how much do we really hear from Joni Mitchell and Marianne Faithful these days? I think the problem is actually getting worse than it already was in the '60s, when Mama Cass was mocked mercilessly for her weight despite having the best voice in the Mama and the Papas.

[technomom]

I know Mary of PPM is a big lady now - was she big in their heyday?

[tommydiablo.livejournal.com]

Also, you never stipulated that they needed to be popular today. All the examples I offered fit your criteria as laid out in the initial entry. I have often ranted about the talentless Barbies running around today. There are so few genuine talents out there and it makes me sad.

[vulpinefox.livejournal.com]

I think macy grey is hot.

But that's not the point of the discussion. *tee hee*

Re:

[tommydiablo.livejournal.com]

It takes all kinds, I suppose. I think Sinead O'Connor is hot. ;o)

[zuluwarriorfred.livejournal.com]

No offense but hey I like some of Brittany's Songs cause they are fun and light hearted, granted not enough to buy a cd or even know the names but enough not to turn the station...she has to have some kind of talent to pull of what she is...look at Maddona and she was a "no talented slut" when she first started and now hehe you don't fuck with that bitch...makes you wonder....

[atomicnumber51.livejournal.com]

I love Madonna, but if you really look at her, if it weren't for her personality and sense of style, she probably wouldn't be very attractive. That gap in her teeth, her nose, kinda nondescript cheekbones... She's slim, but buff, and works out hardcore to keep it up - there's nothing willowy about her. I covet her arms.

She's also pushed hard to bend gender stereotypes, and was up front about her sexuality long before it was remotely acceptable.

[zuluwarriorfred.livejournal.com]

not a madonna fan here but yea you get the point she used what she had made great music people love also used her body...she played a young girl in most of her earlier vidoes and shit...so why can't ms. spears?

[atomicnumber51.livejournal.com]

Mary J Blige, Missy Elliot, Paula Abdul (uber-cute, but short and hyper-muscular), Annie Lenox, Sinead O'Connor, Janet Jackson, Grace Slick, Mariah Carrey, Siouxie Sioux....

[tommydiablo.livejournal.com]

Grace Jones is another who acheived minor success and celebrity and she was kinda freaky. Janet Jackson, to my knowledge, is considered "all that", as the kids say. Sinead O'Connor is also very beautiful and shaves her head to avoid being known for her beauty. In one of her videos, she was wearing a wig and she was incredibly ravishing. Of course, I think she is very beautiful with her head shaven ... but I'm weird. I also find Annie Lennox' androgenous look quite appealing. Yes, I'm very weird, I know.

[phantom_wolfboy]

You may be weird, but not for your taste in women. Sinead and Annie are beautiful, hair or no hair. Just look at their facial structure . . .

[vulpinefox.livejournal.com]

If you've ever seen those backstory shows, lots of today's hotties weren't before they became stars. I think a crack team of 500$ an hour beautician/stylists/fashion consultants/etc can go a long way to making anyone beautiful.

apples != oranges

[jonnyx.livejournal.com]

I don't know if I'd call B.S. (rather appropriate, don't you think?) a "rock star". Maybe manufactured pop singer/corporate product endorser would be more accurate. I don't find her particularly attractive or interesting. In a few years, when it becomes cheaper to do so, I wouldn't be surprised if she and her ilk were replaced by computer graphics and animation. IIRC, there have already been a few digital B.S.-style creations in Japan.

[infj.livejournal.com]

You are right. Except, there was Mama Cass and that women in Wilson-Philips and Anne Wilson of Heart put on some weight, too. I think Alannis Morriset is way too skinny, in my opinion. Annie Lennox. But, of course, I think those women were/are all still beautiful. But, main-stream society tends look down at heavy women. Of course, it takes a lot for a woman to NOT be beautiful, in my opinion. If you saw a woman that looked like Mic Jaggar.. she wouldn't really be beautiful, but she would be fun to watch do the rooster. And she'd probably sell a lot of tickets.